Cathy Tie has an audacity more typical of a tech startup founder than a biotech executive. She dropped out of college to start a genetic screening company and later founded a telemedicine startup. The 29-year-old has been on two Forbes “30 under 30” lists (
Editor’s note:
Not always
a
good
thing
!
) and calls herself “
Biotech Barbie
,” yet until recently, she hadn’t been on the radars of most people in biotech.
That changed last year when she announced her
apparent marriage
and subsequent breakup with He Jiankui, the infamous scientist who was jailed in China for using CRISPR to create the world’s first gene-edited babies in 2018. Tie’s relationship with a scientific pariah was quickly followed by the launch in August of a US company called the
Manhattan Project
.
The name was an unabashed reference to the US atomic bomb project, and the company’s goals were explosive: turning embryo editing — which is effectively banned in most countries, including the US — into a trillion-dollar business. It soon rebranded to Manhattan Genomics, but by December, it had quietly shut down.
That abrupt turn of events, which Tie alluded to in a
post
on X last week and confirmed in an interview with
Endpoints News
, led her to
launch
a second embryo editing startup, called Origin Genomics, earlier this month. Her goals of embryo editing are wildly controversial, and represent an ethical red line that many scientists are unwilling to cross, since the changes would likely impact every cell in the body and become heritable to future generations, magnifying any mistakes. Tie argues the approach could be a more affordable and effective option than waiting to treat children or adults born with terrible genetic diseases.
Endpoints spoke with Tie about her plans for the new company and her relationship with Jiankui. The 35-minute conversation has been substantially edited for length and clarity.
Ryan Cross:
We have to start with the obvious question: Why did Manhattan Genomics shut down?
Cathy Tie:
Mostly because we suffered the same fate as many early-stage startups do, with co-founder conflict. The announcement was just made yesterday, but the operations have been ceased for a few months.
Cross:
Did you do any editing experiments?
Tie:
Not on human embryos.
Cross:
Was this conflict over business, ethics, science or something else?
Tie:
The camp that I continue to exist under is always going to be doing this with transparency and oversight in the US. There are other groups that are possibly doing this in South America or the Middle East, but I’m not interested in any of that. I’m only interested in doing this in the United States with institutional review board oversight, sharing data with key stakeholders, including regulators.
Cross:
Are you suggesting that your co-founder or others at the company wanted to do this work outside of the US, with less oversight?
Tie:
I’m not suggesting that. I’m just stating what I’m interested in. As to that situation, I would not characterize it as an ethics misalignment.
(Note: Tie’s Manhattan Genomics co-founder, Eriona Hysolli, told Endpoints that the breakup was over a Cayman-based entity founded by Tie. Tie described it as a “corporate governance” issue, and said she shut down the startup and gave money back to investors.)
Cross:
Will anyone else previously involved in Manhattan Genomics, any of the scientific contributors or investors, be involved in Origin Genomics?
Tie:
I’m on good terms with everybody.
(Note: One of Manhattan’s “scientific contributors” told Endpoints they were no longer involved in either company. Another said they had not been told Tie was starting a new company.)
Cross:
In addition to continuing work on human embryo editing, you’ve also added this new line of work on an older technology called mitochondrial replacement therapy. Why is that helpful to your goal of embryo editing?
Tie:
In the early 2010s, when this mitochondrial replacement therapy first was discussed in the media, and also in Congress, that’s when the first misconception occurred. The media called it a three-parent baby, even though this technology was very valid in its ability to fix mitochondrial DNA in a mother’s egg before it gets passed down. That was the moment when all germline gene correction was banned. That’s the same change that still affects us to this day.
If it’s proven to be safe and effective and validated, then my goal is to offer a broad range of germline gene therapies that would also include mitochondria replacement therapy.
Cross:
Since this is effectively banned in the US, there’s a political aspect that you have to overcome, which is sort of an unusual situation for a startup.
Tie:
I don’t see this as just a startup. I think of this more as a movement to challenge what is not working in gene therapy and also what doesn’t serve patients. And that’s why I think it’s important to engage with regulators. It’s important to engage with patients. Next month, I’m doing a debate with the Deputy Dean of Harvard Law School, Glenn Cohen. Typically, in an early-stage startup, you don’t do stuff like that.
In [2018], Trump [signed] the Right to Try framework for experimental therapies. And under that framework, multiple bills have been passed in multiple states, and I have received a lot of interest from lobbyists and even patients who are interested in leveraging that framework for germline gene correction.
Cross:
The promise of gene editing technologies is vast, yet there’s been very little commercial or business success. How is that impacting your conversations with investors?
Tie:
We have a great gene editing tool, but the delivery mechanism is missing. As human adults, or even children, there’s billions or trillions of cells that these gene therapies have to be delivered to, and that is a massive issue. When a human is at the earliest stages of development, you’re avoiding this possible delivery issue, because you’re delivering it to eight cells or less.
We have poured billions of dollars into somatic gene therapies, it hasn’t panned out. Why not try something different? Why not do it responsibly?
For people that suffer from these genetic diseases, rather than them growing up and having to spend millions of dollars to fix it, why not give parents a possible option to fix it? It would cost a fraction of the $2 million that Casgevy, the CRISPR therapy for sickle cell disease, costs. It’s going to be much, much less than that. So that’s why I think it’s worthwhile.
Cross:
Embryo editing raises its own challenges. But I’m surprised I don’t hear more people talk about it that way.
Tie:
Well, I think that science and academia is oftentimes a monolith, and it’s very prone to cancel culture. So it almost takes an outsider like myself to challenge it and do something about it.
Cross:
You’ve said before that you’re focused on embryo editing for severe disease and that you’re avoiding the designer baby and enhancement types of characteristics that people often worry about. Is that still the case for Origin Genomics?
Tie:
Yeah, it’s still the case.
Cross:
There are pretty blurry lines between fixing a disease, disease prevention and enhancement. How are you thinking about where those lines are for you?
Tie:
I think there’s a danger to jumping too far ahead when the first thing isn’t even done. I believe the first should be very severe monogenic diseases, especially those that have limited or no cures.
Cross:
How are you going to decide what to do first?
Tie:
I’ve had many patients reach out to me directly with some of these severe monogenic diseases that have no cures or can cause early-onset death. Instead of coming up with a hypothetical list, I’m really curious to learn more about what the patients are suffering from, and whether or not I can try to help them.
Cross:
A couple of personal questions to wrap up. There’s been some confusion about your relationship with He Jiankui. You even put the word “married” in quotation marks on your recent
post
on X. Were you actually married and are you still in touch with him?
Tie:
We were never legally married, and I’m not in touch with him.
Cross:
Can you say anything about why you broke up?
Tie:
I’d rather not get into kind of personal details here.
Cross:
You were banned from China. Was that related to your relationship?
Tie:
I was never given a formal reason as to why.
Cross:
Thank you for taking time to chat with us.